From time immemorial, it seems there is something about South Africa that attracts Brazilian players to these shores. Some come highly regarded, only to flop, while others go on to take the local footballing scene by storm. If Pio Nogueira's three stints with Orlando Pirates, back in the late '80s and early '90s, are anything to go by, the Sao Paulo-born sharpshooter belongs in the latter category. He is still spoken about with a sense of fondness and nostalgia by the Buccaneers faithful who had the fortune of laying their eyes on his exploits, as he bulged the net with astounding regularity. His spell with Kaizer Chiefs, however, was nothing to write home about, as he himself admits he was carrying an injury at the Naturena-based side. Read on as Nogueira, limited command of English and all, retraces his steps in this interview with Soccer Laduma's Lunga Adam.
Lunga Adam: Hi Pio, good to speak to you. How are you? How's Sao Paulo today?
Pio Nogueira: It's rainy and cold. I believe Johannesburg is very cold hey.
LA: Yes, winter this side. So, you got in touch with us last Friday via email after reading the Two Feet Up With Lunga newsletter, and we thought we'd capitalize on that by nailing you down for an interview as a lot of the older generation of our readers will certainly remember your exploits with Orlando Pirates back in the day. It seems you camp on the Soccer Laduma website for all the latest scoops…
PN: Ha, ha, ha, yes, all the time! Because South Africa is my second home hey.
LA: What are you doing for a living these days?
PN: I have an academy here with almost 400 soccer players. Young boys, promising players. They are from seven to 17 years old. I have been running the academy for five years and I'm enjoying it because I am doing what I love. It's good when you are doing something you love, you know. You see, we have psychologists here, people who can take care of the mentality of the players. We have a partnership with those psychologists. We teach them how to play, how to position (themselves), scoring goals, defending, playing in midfield. Every month, the psychologists come across and talk to the players because you know they come from poor families. It's difficult to teach them mentally, you need professional people who can do that.
LA: We would imagine the plan then is to take the boys to bigger clubs later on.
PN: No, I don't dream like that. I worked for so many clubs here, like Portuguesa. I also worked in Angola. I don't have that dream of (sending them to a) big team (in Brazil), you see. My dream is too see our players playing abroad. They must play here and then afterwards go to Europe so they can take their families out of poverty. We know not every player will be a (professional) soccer player, but we are trying our best.
LA: That's a good initiative, taking families out of poverty. In many respects, Brazil and South Africa are similar in that a lot of young, football-loving kids are from disadvantaged backgrounds and they want to turn pro for that very reason.
PN: Yes, it's true. Very true.
LA: Now take us down memory lane. When did you first arrive in South Africa?
PN: First and foremost, I must tell you we have a (WhatsApp) group of Orlando Pirates legends, like Tebogo Moloi, (Albert) "Bashin" Mahlangu and others, where we can share ideas every day. To answer your question, I arrived in South Africa in 1988. First of all, I was supposed to go to Moroka Swallows because the coach who was there at the time, William Moreira, knew me very well, but when I arrived in South Africa, he was fired by Swallows. Then (the late Walter) Da Silva took us to play for Pirates.
LA: You and who?
PN: Freitas Camillo. I only stayed at Pirates for three months, after which we came back to Brazil. The following year, in 1989, (Augusto) Palacios called us to come play for Witbank Aces. I scored so many goals… I think in 11 games I scored 11 goals. In that year, Witbank Aces almost got relegated, but goalkeeper Valmir Bittencourt and I came and helped the team. Then the following year, 1990, we went back to Pirates. But 1988, we were the champions of Bob Save (Super Bowl). I was on the bench. We beat, I think, Kaizer Chiefs at Ellis Park.
LA: So, when you were at Bucs for three months in 1988, you actually signed a contract?
PN: Yeah, we signed a contract for three months. I only played, I think, two games – against Mamelodi Sundowns and Cape Town Spurs.
LA: Didn't you find being in a new environment, away from home, a little daunting?
PN: No, you see, first of all, as a soccer player you must believe in yourself. Secondly, we come from a nation of soccer and for me, I was too relaxed. I was feeling good, you know. I was feeling very free and concentrating on what I was doing on the field. The atmosphere of the supporters was very good and it helped us to motivate ourselves to do our best. But the style of South Africa was a little bit difficult in that particular time for us to adjust in the team. We did not have time to adjust ourselves. It's not like today. Today, when you go overseas, the clubs give you time to adjust. Those days, it was impossible. When we went to Witbank Aces, Palacios is also South American, he knew how to adjust us in the team, you see. The second time I went to Pirates, I did very well. In the third time, I did well too.
LA: You played there three times?
PN: Yes, because when I went to Pirates the second time, in 1990, I went to Portugal. I stayed two years in Portugal. Then in 1992, I came back to Pirates again.
LA: Ah, okay. What did you enjoy the most about playing for the club?
PN: In 1990, I enjoyed playing for Pirates, as well as in 1992. That is because I was scoring many goals, the players started to understand my style of play and I had so many good players around me. I think that generation in South Africa was the best because all the teams had very good players, you see.
LA: Any such players that come to mind?
PN: Shoes Moshoeu, Doctor Khumalo, Ace Khuse, Neil Tovey, Lucas Radebe, Fish, Phil Masinga, the other Masinga (Bennett). There's so many… Zane Moosa, Calvin Petersen, David Nyathi, Rudolf Seale, Roger Links, Shaun Bartlett, Mark Williams, Buthelezi, Tebogo Moloi, Bashin, Malesela. Even that coach for Moroka Swallows now, (Steve) Komphela. Pitso Mosimane. Ah, that generation was great hey. Shane McGregor. Many, many, many players. Good.
LA: Which defender gave you a tough time?
PN: Lucas Radebe. Mark Fish too. Neil Tovey, yho… trouble! Linda Buthelezi kicked me off the field at FNB when he played for Jomo (Cosmos).
LA: Ha, ha. Were you scared of him?
PN: No, not scared, but those players knew what I could do.
LA: What was your secret to scoring goals?
PN: You see, I observed the space of the field and the awareness of the goalkeeper. I also used to position myself inside the box because I was not a very fast player, but I was very clever.
LA: So, in essence, you were always aware of your surroundings, including the space in front of you and behind you?
PN: Exactly. I positioned myself. Even the players would say, "Pio, just stay there in the box. We will do everything and give you the ball." That was the secret also because the players knew my strengths as much as I knew their strengths. You see, most of the Brazilian teams do a specific job for strikers, that's why most of the top teams in the world buy our players because they are clever inside the box.
LA: Can you remember the best goal you scored back in SA?
PN: Yes, against Crystal Palace in Jo'burg. I will send you the video so you can see.
LA: Oh, yes, we got the video. Fantastic goal that was. Pirates keeper made a save, sent a long ball up, it bounced on the centre-line, bounced second time as you evaded the centre-back and just after it bounced the third time, just outside the box, you unleashed a shot into the roof of the net that left the Palace keeper with no chance. Now, the Soweto Derby against Kaizer Chiefs must have even been a bigger occasion than it is now. Can you remember your first appearance in this massive encounter?
PN: The first derby was in Mamelodi against Kaizer Chiefs. It was a friendly game. The game ended in a draw, 0-0, but it was a good game.
LA: What was so unique about the derby?
PN: Totally, it was different from other games. It was something special.
LA: Did you find that the style of football in South Africa was kinda similar to that of Brazil?
PN: In that generation, yes, because the players were, first, fast and very clever in how they played. I could see from that generation that in that time, South Africa was very near the Brazilian game. Even you saw Brazil beat South Africa at FNB 3-2, big game.
LA: Now here's an interesting question. Since then, Brazil have continued their upward trajectory as a world footballing force, while SA had their highs and have ultimately been on a downward spiral. Do you ever sit and ask yourself why this might be?
PN: Yes. You see, the mentality of the players South Africa buy… they don't have international experience. I don't say it's bad players, but South Africa needs to buy players, like, from Europe, from other parts of the world, not only Botswana, Lesotho. I'm not saying these players are bad, but the mentality… they are not good enough. And South Africa become weak, you know. When you have a player who has played in the Brazilian championship or a European championship, it benefits your team. Like, you see now, why (Mamelodi) Sundowns win everything? Because they pick up the players from everywhere. I'm not saying these players are better than the other players from Lesotho, but the mentality is very strong. I think South Africa need to pick up players from Europe, from top countries like Uruguay, Argentina, Chile… those countries where the players have already played in the World Cup. Then things will become different. Let's paint things here. Namibia never played World Cup, Lesotho never played World Cup, Botswana never played World Cup, Zambia never played World Cup.
LA: But charity begins at home, Pio. Why can't we develop our own players and make them better before we look outside for solutions?
PN: I agree on that, but football today is global things. It's money things. If you want to grow in soccer, you must have money. No money, you will have nothing. You understand? That's the problem. I'm agreeing totally with you, but football today is global. You see Saudi Arabia now? Saudi Arabia buy all the top players. If they want to build a strong league and grow those players from Saudi Arabia, they must pick up players like that. They (local players) are gonna learn a lot of things, you understand? Not to say those players from Saudi Arabia are not good players, but they must learn some things in the mind. Look at France, England, Germany – they are top. Look at France, most of the players (in their national team) are from Africa. For example, most of the top players from Africa played for top teams in Europe. That made the difference. As I say, I'm not saying South African development is wrong – no, it's not wrong. They must find a way to start to do things differently. Something, something, not totally, but something is wrong. You see, like, for example, I read a lot of articles from South Africa and I saw an article last month that said Sundowns development programme went to Belgium (for the Kevin De Bruyne Cup). That is good for them! That is very, very good! Pirates are also starting to be clever now, they are also going to Europe for pre-season. That is my view. South Africa must pick up a team and play at least once a month overseas – play in France, play in Germany. All these players are going to get experience, you see, and from there you are going to make a top team.
LA: So your point is that we need to expose our players as much as possible to the rest of the world, with the hope that that mentality will rub off on them?
PN: Yes, yes. Like I say, I'm not saying the South African player is bad. No, it's good, but he must be strong in the mind. If they can be strong in the mind because they have the skill. South African players have brilliant skill, but mentally, they must get strong. Because you see, mention one South African player who's doing very, very well in a top league in Europe. No one! You see?
LA: Sad.
PN: Very, very, very sad. You see, in that generation, that particular time Lucas Radebe played in England, Masinga played in Italy. All the players played in top leagues. Shaun Bartlett was also playing in England. Benni McCarthy was playing in Porto and was champion of the UEFA Champions League. Today you find no one playing for a top team. I saw one of the players is playing in Scotland, but he's not playing regularly in the team. What's the name of the player? I just forgot. He is a good player and he needs to push to be in the team, but for that to happen, his mind must be strong. Most of the South African players must start to play in the top leagues.
LA: Pio, let's leave it there. You've given our football authorities some food for thought. Keep reading Soccer Laduma. Thanks.
PN: Alright, same to you.
